Thivai: A Response to Starrider

(Starrider's original comments to an earlier post are here--I purposely did not correct anything I wrote in the moment)

Starrider,

First, let me say thank you for your long, passionate response.

I too believe that modern humans are missing pieces to the puzzle of life, although, I'm not so sure that we are anymore unique in the development in humanity... we always seem to be missing the point, somehow, which is why I'm asuch andvocate of multiple perspectives and the process of dialogue as a method of sharpening our individual perspectives (even if it is an agonistic dialogic format in which we take opposing viewpoints and sharpen them against the grain)

Which, once again, leaves me touched, in a sense that you left this post... but onward...

I don't necessarily believe that "most" people don't understand what spirituality is, perhaps, when it seems to be missing, these people are engaged in an endless cycle of work and consume, that keeps them distracted from the finer points you are trying to make about our role in the world? How do we break that cycle as a dominant force in the majority of peoples lives?

Absolutely the problem with religion, or spirituality, is that is bureacratic, dogmatic and institutionalized. I would be the first to say that each and every person should study all of the world's religions/philosophies at an early point in their education and then be allowed to develop their own particular worldview/spirtualiy. In this I join with Susanne who visits this site from time to time and introduced me to a great term--we are anti-theists. Against static, unchanging, dogmatic, closed religions (and politics and philosophies). I would want my children, my friends, my loved ones, and, yes, my enemies to have the opportunity to develop their own sense of spirituality and then to put it into play with mine and others.

I feel disengaged most of the time from the natural world--probably why I nostalgistically post pictures of the few moments when I do get to be a part of a more natural world--although in my more posthuman moments I also wonder what is natural and what is not--can something be not-a-part-of-nature? Which I think you would agree with, in priniciple, and I think you argument is definitely on target in that we do not provide enough clear rituals, signposts and anchors for people these days, perhaps, were we might differ, is that I do not see Christianity as the answer (although it could help)... as it is in our society, and throughout Western civilization, linked to the destruction of the environment and, increasingly, apping consumer society in its appeals to the young/disaffected (but then I feel in your intelligent response that you would reject these consumeristic appeals?)

Man? Do you mean human? or are you a patriarchal authoritarian--sorry just thought you should think about it?

Contemporary Christian religion seems to be doing a good job, in Kentucky of picking up the slack, they have adopted all the bells and whistles, the spectacle, the sensations and they have de-mythologized and repackaged their messages for a new generation. It rings empty for me, but then I am somewhat cynical and it does not mean I am closed to the message--I was raised Southern Baptist, I read the bible straight through six times (with careful annotations)--what it means is that it does not seem like an institution that really wants people to think-through and come to their own conclusions (much like our current government and their pushing of a secular religion called patriotism).

Then you say such a beautiful and powerful quote that I could never deny, nay, only hope, that others would at least give a nod of acceptance to:

"Establishing a belief system or comprehensive worldview that they can EXPERIENCE instead of only believe or "have faith" in could make a great difference in the lives of individuals, communities even nations or the world itself."

Once again we have to allow an open space for people to develop their own conception of the world (and beyond) to bring it into play with other viewpoints and to sharpen their conceptions in the process.

You know I am a great listener. This is not a boast. I talk to people, I'm not afraid to state my opinion, but when people want to talk, I listen, wholeheartedly, I "want" to know what they have learned from their experience/their studies. We live in a society that celebrates, nay, that worships, those that shout down others, those that are unchanging in their beliefs, those that say my way or the highway (this is not hyperbole--we can see this operating in America from the micro to the macro scale)

My life has a huge fucking rift across it from the moment I decide I wanted to understand the world (and beyond) to the moment I decide I would learn as much as I possibly could by listening to others

What I have learned is that few respect an open attitude, few hav no patience for patience, and few want to decide for themselves. Where does that leave us? I would not think it would be down the alley of a pre-formed institutionalized religion (not saying we have to reject, but damn it needs some revolutions before I see it anew--once again I do not reject its wisdoms, I do not accept it wholesale)

You state:

"I believe also that having a greater understanding and sense of purpose begins first with the fear (respect) of God and then respect for his creations."

Is it necessary that I "fear" God (oops, here we go again down that slippery slop of patriarchal designations again--ok, I'll quit that critique for now). Perhaps what is needed is for us to quit thinking that we are so special, to recognize that we are all in the same boat (this material world), to care beyond our species, our home, our locality, our nation, our corporation... to recoginize the broader connections and interrealtionships, but, then that is difficult, that requires that we open our minds to other forms of thought, other worldviews, other religions, other nationalistic (and teroristic) goals.

So then I get to this part f your comment... and you know what, I begin to think you ar just trolling, perhaps you are going to catch a blogger on a bad day, and you can hook em' bringing a big fat trophy for your god (lower case intentional):

"The existence of the world then means; not chaos, but order, and if humans wish to exist within that order, they should integrate into the creational order. This is what wisdom and/or spirituality is all about."

Because this comment is so different from your earlier statements (or perhaps it isn't and my idealistic nature over-interrpeted an earnest Chritian seeking to engage in dialogue?)

Then I read the most insensibke gobbledy-gook:

"The Bible itself demonstrates that God's mood regarding the behaviour of man is usually clearly demonstrated by the state of the Earth we live upon. When he is pleased, it is fruitful and yielding- when he is not happy it becomes unfruitful and covered with stubble and desolation."

What?

Interweaved are great realizations:

"I respect the idea that we should care for people before worrying about a paricular problem in nature, but I don't see how the two become completely different issues, they are symbiotic."

but yor ultimate conclusions leave little room for interpetation outside of your beliefs (which is acceptable for you--but not in a dialogue)

.... and your glimmers of progressive politics are undercut by apolitical statements like this:

"As for ridding the Earth of sinful and unworthy men, that is God's business and it has been done according to the book of Genesis."

Bullshit... if thy own eye offends you pluck it out--wake up!

I reject your belief in a Christian god and his mandates based upon the biblical scriptures of Genesis--where does that leave us?

Once again thank you for your response--I'm sorry but, at this time, I will follow my own anti-theist path.

Peace

Thivai